Now that the 2nd to last episode of Dollhouse has aired, we have some answers and a lot of questions. Watch me and Roth discuss what we liked and didn’t like about the episode. We debate what made sense to us and what we felt was illogical.
- Dennis
40 Responses to “Dollhouse “The Hollow Men” S2 EP12 Blog Review (VIDEO)”
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I agree that there were MANY problems and plot holes in this episode. But was I the only one who followed the spinal fluid reasoning? I saw the same comments you made on some other sites. i.e. if he just wanted to get the spinal fluid he could of done that 2 years ago. As I understood it it wasn’t just the spinal fluid. The time in the dollhouse was the equivalent of a flu shot. She had to build up ‘antibodies’ with repeated exposure to the imprints. Still really cheesy, I agree, but not as completely illogical as you say. And I don’t think Topher as Clyde was any misdirection – you guys were just too invested in your theory. Which I think would have led to even bigger logic problems. As always, love your review, but there is so much going on with Dollhouse, I need to write a much longer response later. The short version of my thoughts: too hastily wrapped up leading to plot short cuts and errors. Every time I watch you guys I need to re-watch the episode!!!
I know – I posted this in two places. just posting my thoughts for fans on this site that don't watch you on YouTube.
No problem, glad you did, we want discussion in as many places as possible.
So I'll repeat what I said on YouTube too.
The spinal fluid thing makes more sense the way you explain it, though still convoluted and cheesy.
But disagree about the misdirection, it was placed there purposefully. There's no way that was an "accident" by the writers and director. It makes no sense other than for that reason.
Look at Claire/Whiskey's "Clyde", it was nothing like the "Topher-esque" Clyde at the end of "Getting Closer". It makes no sense whatsoever, other than that purpose.
Dennis
Hi
!
Repeating what I said too.
Yeah I thought of that today: Okay she needed to build antibodies – but in this case – They could have also used Alpha who could do the same things as Caroline. How is it possible that they made this random discovery with Caroline apparently well before she was Echo (even if they were watching her AFTER she was a terrorist and that is why they looked at her blood – which is stretching it pretty far already) but did not actively test all of his active dolls (like alpha) and discover the same thing in his blood? Also they could have just held her separately and subjected her to repeated imprints-no need for subterfuge. Finally she does not BLOCK imprints-she integrates them.
But yes you make some good points – I just think a number of other explanations would have worked better and been more ultimately satisfying in terms of the overall plot. Good to hear from you and get your perspective
!!!
Thanks for commenting!
Roth
Regarding their random discovery, Boyd says at the opening of the episode that Rossum is leading the manufacturer of MRI machines and on the cutting edge of a lot of medical advances, as well as having clinical laboratories in every major city. Caroline had her blood tested to see if she was a bone marrow candidate for her cousin with leukemia, and a flag popped up in their system. They're shady so they keep all the "interesting" medical cases, and Caroline was one of them. Because she integrates imprints and Boyd's ridiculous plan to get her to this point, she's pretty much at her peak. I imagine they're reverse engineering her spinal fluid to block imprints. I suppose it wouldn't be suitable from your average active and is exclusive to whatever makes Caroline's DNA unique.
Also, slow motion explosions should never be done. Ever.
Brian
Hi Brina!
Yes I heard and understood the convoluted reasoning for the discovery – I find it – well convoluted and improbable. Exactly what "red flag" would go up? How would they know what to look for if they did not know such a thing existed and WHY would they not look for it in their existing actives? If they had – they would have found Alpha's blood who could do what Caroline could do well before she could. It's also far too improbably that this untrained college girl is able to be a single acting terrorist against a corporation this far reaching and powerful-especially the acts she was performing. Then to presume this same girl also has "magic blood" that they somehow knew to look for makes it much worse. It's ridiculous.
Also why the elaborate subterfuge – just take her, lock her up and expose her to multiple imprints and then take her spinal fluid when enough "antibodies" have built up.
Something that rare and important would need to be far more contained than she was.
Also – both sierra and victor seem to have some ability to resist their imprinting as they continue to recognize each other each time. And ultimately even Millie can resist and choose of her own will.
Not to the same degree as Echo obviously…
I would have been happier if Boyde was just rich, bored and really crazy to be honest. If was tryoing to find and build some loony family to survive what he saw as the impending Apocalypse.
If he had wanted to create Echo as an answer and created the subterfuge of the potential destruction of Rossum as a carrot because that is what she wanted more than anything – I can buy that. But the spinal fluid thing is crap. It leaves way too many holes and honestly she is just straight up selfish not to give it if a vaccine could be created from it considering what ends up happening.
Okay enough
Thanks for your comments!
Roth
I
Yes we forgot to talk about the super cheesy slow mo explosions while Echo runs out with the explosions behind her. That was so cliche and lame.
Dennis
My thoughts on this episode of Dollhouse. http://theendlessdream.tumblr.com/
I also was not happy with how it turned out. It was rushed and seemed insulting to those who have watched it for the entire series run.
Checked out your review, I agree the thing with Melanie was lame, so cliche. Her love for Ballard overcame her Doll programming and therefore killed herself. Makes me want to vomit.
Dennis
What I got from the spinal fluid thing was that, everytime Echo stopped a personality from overpowering the others and coming to the forefront, it did some weird biochemical gobbldygook with her spine juice… I forget how they explained the brain to body specifics, but Echo, the doll, is like the gatekeeper of all those personalities, she decides which ones to call upon, which skills were useful, and which can stay at the back of her mind. For example, we don't ever see the dominatrix persona alot, so everytime it tries to take control of the mind, Echo, the doll, blocks it, so, then it does sciency (but not really) stuff to her back bone juice. I dunno.
Here's something else, since Alpha was responcible for the mind dump into Echo, perhaps that was all engineered by Boyd, in which case, perhaps Alpha was responcible for the Thoughpocalypse of the Epitaphs?
Also, I saw Mellie going as soon as Ballard tried to convince her to remeber them. Honestly you can't've watched this show for two years, and BSG without almost expecting that.
And I still think Dualla, had the better death. And they actually showed that one.
What about the fact there was really only one none fatal wound in the entire episode? When Echo shot Ballard in the leg I though, oh yeah, not everybody aims for the head…
Hi Nolan!
Right but speaking of Alpha he can do the same exact things as Echo/Caroline. So how is it possible that an organization that is far reaching enough to test the blood of a woman (I suppose they are tracking) for this special blood attribute – failed to rest all of their existing actives. Because if they had they would have found that Alpha had the same blood and contained and used him. Alpha was in the Dollhouse well before Echo arrived. They would have found ot before he went bonkers and escaped.
If they already knew then they would have known how dangerous an attribute that is and probably just would have locked her up and subjected her to various imprints to build the antibodies rather than taking the risk of letting her run around at all.
It just feels unsatisfactory to me. There was an easier way to tie it all together and one which would have felt more satisfying I think.
Thanks Again!
Roth
Just so we're clear, I'm not defending the spinal fluid thing, as I'm pretty sure there could have been a better explanation, but since it /was/ used, I figure I may as well try to reason it out to get were the writers were thinking.
So, Alpha. I actually disagree that they could have used him. From what I can see, any doll could have multiple minds dumped in them, but we saw with Alpha that the minds co-mingled and controlled him, he wasn't in control, all the different minds fought with each other, and were trying to be top man. Echo, though, SHE was the one incontrol of which mind got 'airtime'
Basically Echo is like the old Sci-Fi network, a bit pretenious, but overall knew what progamming to put on. Alpha though, he's a bit like FOX or NBC, they don't know what's going on, and just want all the glory, and thus, aren't focused on what shows to air. =P
I do argee though, that this was rather rushed. imagine if they had the chance to give the Boyd reveal some time to grow…all the suspence! I did love "Because I love you guys, You're my family." line, especially with the expression on his face.
Hi Nolan!
Yeah I hear you. I probably sound more intense about it than I feel
Here are some of my problems with it inherently – I will repeat a response to someone else.
Exactly what "red flag" would go up upon testing her blood? How would they know what to look for if they did not know such a thing existed and WHY would they not look for it in their existing actives? If they had – they would have found Alpha's blood who could do what Caroline could do well before she could. I say this – Alpha was not in the kind of control she was BUT it's he also did not have a team of ppl training him to control as she did. Boyd and Ballard alone. When she was lost out in the world Ballard came in to help her and train her. Fundamentally – he does what she does – just not as well (and he is evil). But in terms of genetics, it must be the same mutation that makes that possible.
It's also far too improbable that this untrained college girl is able to be a single acting terrorist against a corporation this far reaching and powerful-especially the acts she was performing (i.e. not one huge explosion in a busy lobby but a series of break in's through highly developed security systems). Then to presume this same girl also has "magic blood" that they somehow knew to look for makes it much worse. It's ridiculous.
Also why the elaborate subterfuge – just take her, lock her up and expose her to multiple imprints and then take her spinal fluid when enough "antibodies" have built up.
Something that rare and important would need to be far more contained than she was.
Also – both sierra and victor seem to have some ability to resist their imprinting as they continue to recognize each other each time. And ultimately even Millie can resist and choose of her own will.
Not to the same degree as Echo obviously…
I would have been happier if Boyde was just rich, bored and really crazy to be honest. If was tryoing to find and build some loony family to survive what he saw as the impending Apocalypse.
If he had wanted to create Echo as an answer and created the subterfuge of the potential destruction of Rossum as a carrot because that is what she wanted more than anything – I can buy that. But the spinal fluid thing is crap. It leaves way too many holes and honestly she is just straight up selfish not to give it if a vaccine could be created from it considering what ends up happening.
Okay seriously just having fun hashing it all out
Thanks for your comments!
Roth
Additionally, I wasn't too sure of the Topher/Clyde theory. I thought it was a good theory, but I thought at one point it had a bit of potential to become the "7th Cylon is Starbucks dad!" theory, where, hey, it works well, but the writers just didn't see it.
Although, what was that whole "That's why I chose you Topher." Moment about. Possibly it's just that he chose Topher over Bennett, (Presumably Whiskey could've been told by Boyd to kill Topher) but is there something more there, still?
The thing about the Topher/Clyde theory that people should understand is that it's something I didn't want to be true, as I liked the Topher character the way he was. However I think the writers/director purposefully lead us to believe he was some sort of version of Clyde.
Since so many people are split on this, I'm going to put a video together showing how similar that Clyde (in "Getting Closer") is to Topher, and how Claire/Whiskey's version of Clyde is nothing like Clyde which further makes it even more disingenuous.
Dennis
I thought the Whiskey-Clyde was one of the fakes that Boyd created to act as co-founder after he was put in the attic? But I wasn't paying that much attention.. Too bad that they had to throw in such a lousy last episode, it was pretty painful to watch at times.
It was one of the many versions of Clyde that they made, who originally created the Dollhouse tech. Which I don't understand why they didn't use him to help improve the tech instead of running around fighting and shooting people?
Dennis
There is a lot of explaining to do with the Clyde's. Yeah I think next weeks will be better. But still not quite satisfy.
Thanks for your comments!
Roth
Plot problem 1: Whiskey Clyde. Nothing even resembling either attic Clyde or Clyde 2.0 the 5th.
Possible reason: ‘Upgrades’
Plot problem 2 : Caroline was tied down and suddenly sits up totally free. Also, just (apparently) walks away. Wouldn't there be guards on her?
Possible reason: Poor editing, she is super awesomely able to escape/overcome anything so they just skipped that part.
Plot problem 3: Anthony is completely Topherish about his fighting skills upgrade. Didn’t he already have mad fighting skills as himself? He nearly fought off the hive solders in his hotel room single handedly.
Plot 4: Spinal fluid. Really? I agree with you Roth – it was stupid. Even though it was ‘explained’ as a response to repeated imprints. And how could they have mapped the factor to the trait? It would have made more sense if it had been noticed about her after she became a doll, then cultivated.
Plot Problem 5: Mellie fights off her programing to kill herself ‘for love’? Really first Victor , then Mellie, so Echo isn’t unique?
Plot problem 6: Blow up the mainframe? Isn’t the mainframe cloud sourced using human brains in all the attics all over the world?
Possible reason: The whole plan was suggested by Boyd so it was a deliberate red herring on his part. There was nothing of importance in that main frame so it didn’t matter that they blew it up. But still a plot flaw that our that it didn’t occur to our heros. Duh.
Plot problem 7: Destroy all the tech and all the plans and all the equipment? No way all copies would be in that one building.
Possible reason: see 6. Also, clearly they didn’t because the thoughtcalypse still happens.
Plot problem 8: Fight with Whiskey Clyde how did Caroline knock her out without killing her? Looked like Whiskey was shot! Also, I didn’t catch that Topher got her out until the third viewing of the episode.
Possible reason: Just bad editing
Plot problem 9: I had to see the episode three times.
Plot awesomeness 1: Enver as Topher.
Plot awesomeness 2: Topher and Adel. OK, everything Topher. Is it just me or did Topher get hot in season 2?
Plot awesomeness 3: Evil Boyd. Just exactly like regular Boyd. Loved that.
Overall, I feel that I could have loved it but Joss didn’t have time to finish what he was doing so he kind of threw together a bunch of stuff he meant to wrap up more slowly and completely.
Yes your Plot Problem 5 was so lame, all this fighting off the programming seems so cheesy to me.
There's so many things that make no sense at all, and keep hoping there's some sort of reasonable explanation for them but there isn't.
Dennis
Also with Plot Problem #1, the "upgrades" aren't supposed to alter personality to that significant of a degree, look at how Anthony was, he was the same just with better fighting skills.
Dennis
Yep all really excellent points – I don't know I guess they just didn't have time to do the conclusion justice.
Hope you are great!
Roth
It's a damn shame about the crazy spinal fluid reveal in this episode. You guys are right. Echo doesn't block imprints, she integrates them. Using her spinal fluid to make a vaccine to fight off imprinting makes no sense. I can understand Boyd's logic. As powerful as the Rossum Corporation is, the imprinting technology would both leak out and get stolen by other corporations and governments. Hell that just happened to Google in China. However, Boyd's two year plan with Echo makes no sense. The only people who seem to resist imprinting are Victor and Sierra. No matter what imprint they get, they still remember each other- they still love each other. I think the show kind of painted themselves into a corner with the whole, "Echo is they key savior of the world" crap. If anything she is just a good version of Alpha. If you take everything that's happened, but make Victor and Sierra the main focus of the series this would have made a lot more sense. It would have been a better series because the actors portraying Victor and Sierra are a thousand times better than Eliza Dushku. Unfortunately the series was taylor made to revolve around Dushku's character. The other huge WTF is Clyde inhabiting the body of Dr. Saunders/Whiskey. What the hell!? Boyd and Saunders/Whiskey genuinely love each other. What the hell was that? Boyd is ok with this?? I guess the similarity between Clyde 5.0 and Topher was a crappy red herring. I thought Saunders/Whiskey killed Bennet in order to hurt and completely break Topher. There is a sad history between Topher and Whiskey. She seriously hates him because Topher basically made her from the "spare parts" of the dead male Dr. Saunders. Who knows what happened to the original mind that was born into the Whiskey body. I thought for sure both her and Topher would have a big confrontation about all that in this episode. She's basically a Frankenstein's monster and the first Active to become a "real" person. Just like Alpha was the first Active to integrate all imprints. Hell the series didn't really need Echo at all, but Eliza Dushku is an executive producer, hence the "painting themselves into a corner". Yep, I think this all would have been better without Echo as the main focus. I was even impressed with Summer Glau's performance as Bennet. She did a really good job becoming that character. I'm still looking forward to the finale, but it is difficult getting past all this. Boyd doesn't just love Saunders/Whiskey, he genuinely cares about Echo for some damn reason as well as everyone else- his "family". Oh, and another thing. So what if they've wiped out Boyd. Like Clyde(s) said, they have multiple backups in multiple bodies. Not only that, but blowing up Rossum's headquarters would do as much good as blowing up Google's headquarters-not much. The whole system is a distributed network. Rossum's mainframe is spread out across all the Dollhouses around the world. Destroying the center just makes all the other parts independent.
I agree with all of this. Joss did such a great job with all the characters, it is a shame that the show is 'about' Echo. You are right if Boyd genuinely cared about his 'family' wouldn't his love for Clare have been real? There was no reason for Clyde to take Whiskey's body. After all he has plenty of men to choose from.
Yes the actors surrounding Dushku were much better and therefore I was way more invested in their characters and storylines. Had Dollhouse been mainly about the place as a whole versus Echo-centric it could have been great.
Ironic isn't it? The reason the show exists is because Eliza Dushku's celebrity and deal with FOX, and yet she is the main reason why the show isn't as great as it could have been.
Dennis
So true. I have always been very impressed with the other actors. I hope that in the future we see more of their work, especially in well written quality projects.
Hi Transfluke!
Agreed I've always enjoyed the support cast and you make great points in your original post. I think that the final ep will be enjoyable as it has great writers behind it. But still a great deal has been left unanswered. Thanks for your comments!
Roth
I agree 100% with this entire review. Completely. Except I'll take my complaints one step further:
Did we really need Caroline making the Stalone run down the exploding hall way, just to leap out of the way, and then instantly teleport herself outside?
That was honestly the worst piece of film in the entire series.
I've said it once, and I'll say it again, I won't waste my time with another Wheddon series. When he does something that lasts another 5+ seasons, I'll just torrent the show and play catch up with the rest of the world. Firefly was his best creation to date. It was solid all the way around; and that show's unjustified cancellation by FOX was a tragedy. Dollhouse's cancellation is a welcome release.
BRING BACK T:SCC.
Yes that was one thing we forgot to talk about. The cheesy slo mo running down the hallway as explosions filled the background as Echo ran out. That was super lame.
As for Terminator SCC, I love that show and it's cancellation still fills me with anger everytime I think about it. It's such an underappreciated show.
Dennis
Don't be hating on the Joss! It is true that this isn't his best series – I agree with you that Firefly takes that honor. And Sarah Connor Chronicles – I too miss that show so much it hurts. But I disagree that Dollhouse is a complete waste of time. I blame the network executives not Joss, I think they forced him to rush a story that led to uneven treatment. There was so much potential and I still think he is genius. I do blame him for casting Dushku. Didn't he see Tru Calling?
The problem with Dushku was that it was a Catch 22. Joss could not get the show greenlit without Dushku, but she was the main problem with it.
Eliza had a development deal with FOX, and she wanted to do a show with Joss, so that's how it came to be, which means without her, there wouldn't ever be a Dollhouse (which is ironic)
Dennis
I wish there were better options for develping Joss' work. He belongs somewhere that he can be completely free to do his ideas (like Dr Horrible on the internet) but still have major funding like he gets at Fox. I’m a total geek because one of my biggest fantasies is to be so rich that I can call up Joss and say I’m giving you X million dollars (I don’t know enough about TV budgets to know the figure) and I want 26 episodes to start airing on date X. I want you to finish them all before the first air date. Then he would say 26 episodes of what? To which I would say I don’t care. Whatever you want to make. Just give me 26 episodes.
That's what I'd like to do for Terminator SCC and Firefly. Those two shows to me are the biggest cancellation travesties of Sci Fi television.
For non-sci fi, I would fund a final season of Deadwood.
Dennis
Damn smilies. That should be Terminator : Sarah Connor Chronicles.
I agree with Dennis in that this episode was not as strong as last week's. For me it felt for the first time a little rushed.
I also agree with Roth that the spinal fluid explanation did not make any sense. It is a very odd mistake for someone like Joss to make. Not saying he is perfect, just that after the whole mitochondrian controversy you'd think the lesson was learned throughout geekdom.
Maybe there will be a throwaway line next episode making that revelation all a bad dream?
"Maybe there will be a throwaway line next episode making that revelation all a bad dream?"
Yeah, that would just piss off even more people including myself.
I do find it odd that Joss would resort to this type of George Lucas mythology and M. Night Shamalama Ding Dong twists.
Dennis
I know – the entire series took place in the attic – there are no dolls, no dollhouse, just a bank of humans hooked up to a computer. Wait – where have heard that before?
Can't wait to see what you thought of Epitaph 2: Return. Did you love or hate that Joss basically said screw you to anyone watching who didn't buy the DVD to see Epitaph 1?
Fantastic post , its a wow mistress post , thank you and keep on!